tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post708343891496956911..comments2024-03-27T13:22:37.478-07:00Comments on The Glass Character: "I see dead people": Victorian post-mortem photographyMargaret Gunninghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-46405349625965312082020-09-03T11:36:39.489-07:002020-09-03T11:36:39.489-07:00Thanks for your comments. I posted this piece lite...Thanks for your comments. I posted this piece literally eight years ago, and at the time people were more likely to take things like this at face value. I will let the piece stand because I literally don't have time to tear it apart, because the so-called updated material may not be right either (what is the proof?),and because I doubt there were no Victorian "tricks" to edit or change different genres of photography. Just look at all the "spirit photos" with ghostly images of the deceased plainly featured - so fake now we laugh at them, but they weren't laughing then. Thesa are clearly clever fakes, but no doubt MANY people were fooled by them. I think it might be evidence of fakery elsewhere in photography. Just my opinion, I didn't live in that era, and this was a very early blog post which is not gospel truth, obviously. I'd be interested in any blog or Facebook posts you might have on this subject. The insistence that Victorian corsets never hurt women and were actually GOOD for their health is another myth, a revisionist claim I very much doubt, made by fetishists striving to defend their addiction. Thoughts?Margaret Gunninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-74676237573319370992020-09-03T11:22:50.805-07:002020-09-03T11:22:50.805-07:00Those are myths brought on by the internet and gre...Those are myths brought on by the internet and greed. Death was a common occurrence in the Victorian era, and photography was a new concept. It is true the Victorians took post mortem photos, but they certainly didn't consider it morbid to photograph the dead as they were, dead. That is a concept started in more recent times, and gained popularity as the internet gained popularity. The earliest mention I can find is from 2003. They did not stand the dead, sit them upright, paint eyelids or do anything else so the dead appeared alive. A photographer may have altered a photo itself, but not so the dead appeared alive,but in cases where a person may have blinked, etc.VPMP were usually quite obvious with decedent in a bed or coffin surrounded by flowers. Closed eyes do not always mean dead because they often photographed small children as they slept because they were still. MANY pics on the net are labeled pm when they are not pm. Don't you wonder when looking at a photo, why you can't tell who is deceased? Because it isn't a post mortem photo. If you question the validity of a VPMP, 9x out of 10 it is not post mortem. Why do these myths continue? Look up VPMP on Etsy and you'll see why. You'll also notice pics are now labeled "possibly pm" because reports of fraud. Sellers know many believe these myths and are adamant about it, so they need not worry about selling these fake VPMP. They also know many perpetuate these myths, therefore the concept isn't likely to die down any time soon.irisheyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02226664187205814689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-1961657520891911522018-06-10T09:16:28.522-07:002018-06-10T09:16:28.522-07:00There is a lot of misinformation about Victorian p...There is a lot of misinformation about Victorian postmortem photos on the Internet, primarily the thing about standing photos. Victorians did not want to stand their dead up to look life like. That is a ridiculous myth. They wanted them to look peaceful and in repose as we do now. They would be horrified by the idea of propping them up. For more info see: http://dealer042.wix.com/post-mortem-photos This website exists for education only, no ads and no profit. <br />Historian 305https://www.blogger.com/profile/17817509487805301688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-64239922605728680252017-09-28T01:27:07.574-07:002017-09-28T01:27:07.574-07:00Thank you for commenting. This wasn't a scient...Thank you for commenting. This wasn't a scientific or scholarly article but written from the vantage-point of a person who is curious about the subject and wants to explore it. I wanted to try to understand why this custom, which seems so odd or even morbid to us, was so important to Victorians. I've seen forums on the internet where people argue whether post-mortem photos are, in fact, post-mortem. Photos of people in the era often looked stiff or unnatural or glassy-eyed. In any case, the photos were meant to create atmosphere more than anything. The last two photos are of reborn dolls. I was trying to make a point about the blurred line between living/unliving. Margaret Gunninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-58207058185198498062017-09-27T17:41:28.148-07:002017-09-27T17:41:28.148-07:00I have done years of research on Victorian photos ...I have done years of research on Victorian photos and have written articles and have a website about them. I have also worked in museums in Victorian collections. If you count down from the top, photo number 8 is a photo of a live baby and is not even Victorian. The child is holding it's head up and has clear and focused eyes. The paper photo was creased and the brown flecks are foxing, from age. Photo number 10 is also a live child. Live children do not sit in chairs, hold their own heads up and look at the camera with focused eyes. And they certainly do not grasp the arms of chairs!Historian 305https://www.blogger.com/profile/17817509487805301688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-82199814369119180972016-05-17T17:26:21.428-07:002016-05-17T17:26:21.428-07:00A lady I worked with did this. Her baby passed awa...A lady I worked with did this. Her baby passed away about two weeks after she was born so the took away all the tunes and wire and she took a picture of her holding her baby. She looked like a beaming proud mommy in the picture. :(Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03158458252949636539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-58984170163530815892014-11-25T10:54:30.957-08:002014-11-25T10:54:30.957-08:00I understand what you're saying. Our whole cul...I understand what you're saying. Our whole culture has become so removed from death that it's seen as an aberration. It's "normal" to die alone in a hospital bed and be immediately cremated. Even wanting to spend some time with the "body" is seen as "creepy" and somehow abnormal and unhealthy, when it was once normal to wash and dress the body for burial as a last act of love. Now we are told over and over again that we must "let go". At best, the stages of grief are assigned to us and we must pass through each of them in order. Memorial services have become "a celebration of his/her life", and while I can see the value in this, sometimes it's like one big party and if you have to cry, you have to leave the room or you will be seen as "negative" and gloomy or unable to "let go". In other words, we're lousy at grief. The Victorians had no such hangups. Death was part of life. I don't think they felt any less agony at the death of a child however. People wore black as a visible sign of mourning, perhaps so others would treat them more gently. Now we slap a smile on and say, boy, he had a great life! Margaret Gunninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-90462149839807882992014-11-25T10:12:47.119-08:002014-11-25T10:12:47.119-08:00My little girl was a preemie (29 weeks) and the la...My little girl was a preemie (29 weeks) and the last picture of the baby in the parents hands is about the size she was when she was born. You had better believe that had she not made it, we would have had pictures taken of her with us in as normal a way as possible and might have even had our son take pictures with her. I guess because I have had to on several occasions thought of what would happen if my daughter did not make it, that this seems less unusual for me. My thoughts on this are that these are not dead children. These are someone's babies that they had hopes and dreams for and this is their desperate attempt to somehow hold onto those babies just a small while longer. God bless anyone who loses a child.Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16342453633403988012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-33682711408027282062014-08-07T00:53:21.350-07:002014-08-07T00:53:21.350-07:00You're right. I did sneak these in at the last...You're right. I did sneak these in at the last, perhaps because I have similar feelings about reborn dolls. I know they are important to some people, but it's hard for me to see something that is cherished as if it is alive, when it is in fact inanimate.Margaret Gunninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-19784329976651462872014-08-06T23:33:18.483-07:002014-08-06T23:33:18.483-07:00Interesting article! I did want to add that the la...Interesting article! I did want to add that the last two are reborn baby dolls and not real people. Steviehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00863759460755092056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-55005765877487334162014-07-24T00:23:31.193-07:002014-07-24T00:23:31.193-07:00Hello, and thanks for your question. This is not a...Hello, and thanks for your question. This is not a baby, but a "reborn" doll. I didn't want to get into the issue of lifelike dolls, because there does seem to be a bit of a crossover, except that these "babies" were never alive. This is far creepier in my mind than what the Victorians did to cope with their grief, but then again - some people love them and collect them lovingly.Margaret Gunninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281594044624096600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-82171003050780305392013-09-06T07:27:18.191-07:002013-09-06T07:27:18.191-07:00Not all are postmortem -- the head vise, etc. was ...Not all are postmortem -- the head vise, etc. was used to keep the subject still for a minutes-long exposure, and were common in early photo studios.mfophotoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15229417718013779882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-49485269337892003042013-08-03T22:10:27.958-07:002013-08-03T22:10:27.958-07:00You are such a caring person to have taken the tim...You are such a caring person to have taken the time to make sure the photocopies were the best possible quality for the parents. Not many would take the time to do that today. I agree that the photos here are dignified and quite moving, to me at least. The photos of the children are the most heartbreaking. I can understand why parents and other family members would want to have a keepsake of their loved one. I can remember my own grandmother having a photo of a mother holding her recently deceased child, who appeared to be about 10 years old. I was a child when I first saw that photo and I just thought the mother was holding the child awkwardly; I did not realize the child was dead. It was only later on as an adult did I found out the truth about the photo. I do think it is a shame that we are so 'afraid' of death in today's world. It is a natural part of our existence and yet we want to sanitize it with funeral homes and all the modern trappings of a visitation and funeral. Sometimes I think it would be better if we _could_ die in peace at home, surrounded by loved ones and knowing they will be the ones to handle our body. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08405570973910949732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-42621063873914573322013-06-14T10:45:40.196-07:002013-06-14T10:45:40.196-07:00I am a graveyard photographer, and many times I co...I am a graveyard photographer, and many times I come across graves of children that died so many years ago that their siblings are probably dead too, and that headstone is the only record of their passing. I couldnt make up my mind about these post mortem images initially, but as I read more over the months they began to be less creepy and more of a last impression of that loved one. I think that black and white photography does give them a slightly surreal feel, and I doubt if it would work well in colour. I have a niece in my family that drowned when she was just over 4, and many times I wish there was some record of her in pictures, but alas there is nothing. DRWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05740771966627637621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-44288264589527054732013-06-09T20:33:50.995-07:002013-06-09T20:33:50.995-07:00As a parent who lost a baby to miscarriage...the v...As a parent who lost a baby to miscarriage...the void carries on. You have certain expectations, they are stifled and cut short before they have a chance to begin. Not having the opportunity to hold my unborn baby, touch its tiny little hands...it leaves no room for closure but a void that lingers. The only "proof" I had that my baby was ever real...the sonogram photo. Even that allows me to know that the pain I still carry was for a reason. It wasn't real to everyone else, but it was certainly real to me. Something as simple as a photo...even a poor one...can become a priceless treasure to anyone experience grief and loss. Thank you for being so sensitive about this post and for sharing the information.Gwen's Busy Little Handshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285964066341573086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-86414953524018269292013-06-08T02:12:34.711-07:002013-06-08T02:12:34.711-07:00Not all of the post mortem photos were so easy to ...Not all of the post mortem photos were so easy to spot. Writing a lovely blog about this subject is so titillating when you show only gruesome and creepy dead babies, gives you the impression that the only photographs of post mortem children were the “in your face dead babies and toddlers”. Most post mortem photos are sweet and sad and very respectful, you see a life, not a death. The “in your face dead” was a later transformation as more middle class had access to photography and the abundance of less talented photographers who did not take the time to pose subjects as lifelike as possible. There are subtle hints. I have seen many, many, many post mortem photos, they certainly don't catch the eye as well as the preceding photos. I see so many wonderful examples of post mortem children and so many “Post Mortem????” EBay rip-offs, some wonder what we value anymore.<br />I just don't think there is a definitive answer, some children looked very much alive although they were very much dead. To the contrary not all children with eyes closed or creepy expressions or blank stares are dead, some are just that, really creepy kids. I like to believe in good old fashioned intuition, it's just genetically programed into our subconscious to know when someone is dead and in many photos there are subtle hints, you just have to look.<br />toomuchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046249709436412340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-58358459297756570192013-04-29T15:46:06.370-07:002013-04-29T15:46:06.370-07:00I would love to know more about the last picture o...I would love to know more about the last picture of the beautiful baby girl. If you have any information.auralurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506363061883262353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-73636196033326871962013-04-02T20:17:12.440-07:002013-04-02T20:17:12.440-07:00I looked at the photo again, and I believe you'...I looked at the photo again, and I believe you're right about the thermometer. I see it, too. I can't imagine taking a portrait with a thermometer in her mouth, alive or dead. So what's up with that?Alice in WVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09901875340513968855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-62817648735858407342013-02-02T11:40:05.093-08:002013-02-02T11:40:05.093-08:00My best guess is that the picture is a publicity s...My best guess is that the picture is a publicity shot associated with one of the Dubliners' best known songs: Finnegan's wake"the Blogladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02887556498399529113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-41814722591812838342012-12-23T19:47:36.730-08:002012-12-23T19:47:36.730-08:00The top image definitely is the Dubliners. Most li...The top image definitely is the Dubliners. Most likely its a promotional shot from the same session that provided this 1966 album cover. <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finnegan_alt.jpg<br /><br />Finnigan's Wake is a 19th century Irish ballad, recorded by the group, which also provided James Joyce with the title for his 1939 novel, Finnegans Wake [sic].BHMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243023882275626644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-40252400742687001142012-12-15T17:41:11.555-08:002012-12-15T17:41:11.555-08:00My nephew was 2 when he died a few weeks ago, and ...My nephew was 2 when he died a few weeks ago, and I was by his side every day for the 2 weeks that he was dying. It was very dignified, and I held his hand, kissed him, talked to him the whole time. Even in the hours after he died, when he was cold, it wasn't difficult. <br /><br />Until the funeral. I had to put his shoes on, and I just couldn't do it. The stiffness didn't make it impossible, it just really hit me then. I couldn't imagine the parents of these children having to position them when their bodies were that way... Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03814187074145484101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-13672377008498836312012-12-08T09:41:40.820-08:002012-12-08T09:41:40.820-08:00Margaret--I am wondering about the photo of the li...Margaret--I am wondering about the photo of the little girl with her hand at her brow...It looks to me like she has a thermometer in her mouth. Is she just ill, or certainly dead? The eyes seem strange...if she is indeed pm, is this a case of painting the eyes over the lid? If so, it's very detailed, but not at all impossible to do. The lowest arc under her eye could be the closed lid, if you cover the rest of the eye with a pencil or something. Your thoughts?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-32297962367685492252012-12-06T11:27:30.708-08:002012-12-06T11:27:30.708-08:00ALBUM OF PHOTOGRAPHS POST MORTEM
That album of ol...ALBUM OF PHOTOGRAPHS POST MORTEM<br /><br />That album of old photographs,<br />I took in my hands to look;<br />As old and shabby, poses with dark,<br />My soul yearned images stare ...<br /><br />Old photographs, gloomy, dark,<br />Sad memories of those moments.<br />Sitting and standing, the morbid figures,<br />They seemed to sleep in grim faces ...<br /><br />They were souls who died in the bed!<br />In Memoriam exposed as dismal,<br />Also figured a small infant ...<br /><br />Seeing those faces, reflected no fear!<br />I know my future will arrive sooner,<br />Maybe later, soon or later ...<br /><br /><br />Poem By Blog Lírio das Almas <br />(Lily of Souls)<br />São Paulo - Brazil<br />Lírio das Almashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15111117065638823755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-25061449958301679632012-11-24T11:19:59.920-08:002012-11-24T11:19:59.920-08:00Fascinating and very moving.
I didn't know an...Fascinating and very moving.<br /><br />I didn't know anything about this - as a photographer I find it mind-blowing but remembering grief I recall how important that last visual memory is.<br /><br />Thank you for your efforts and insights, Ssgfnorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16907624120309466286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774625592830261479.post-398278145459423722012-11-04T04:40:32.482-08:002012-11-04T04:40:32.482-08:00I think these pictures are beautiful. I know, with...I think these pictures are beautiful. I know, with our thinking today, they seem creepy... and yeah it could be pretty creepy having pictures of dead people. But these pictures are commemorating a life that once was. A life that was short lived. In that era the death rate was high.. expecially in children. We are lucky enough today to have access to cameras where we can take pictures of our childrens (and other loved ones) every second if we choose. This was not an option then. For most, the post mortem photos was the ONLY picture they had of their loved ones. My heart breaks for all the loss back then. I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a child let alone multiple children over a period of time. I have a picture of my grandmother in her casket. It helped me to gain closure by having that. As it most likely did these people so long ago. <br /><br />Our society has lost all compassion and been highly desensitized to the fact that death is ALWAYS around the corner. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589913735801518795noreply@blogger.com